One of the hardest things for me to do is actually put the restraints on. And you know, vision has restraints when you have vision. It's kind of like you can't just do anything. You have the restraints and so you know where you want to go. You know what you want to do I have to take stock in, what is God called me to do? And what can my family and what can I personally handle emotionally, physically, spiritually, and all the above? A pastor turn tech leader and a millennial churchgoer, exploring the intersection of technology, culture and faith, equipping you with innovative strategies to support you as you live out your calling leader churches with confidence to step into the future together? This is the give it up podcast. What's up guys and welcome back to another give it up podcast episode, or should we say aloha? Because today our guest is coming live from the islands of Hawaii to us. And Vance, this is your friend. So I want you to give the formal introduction here. Oh my goodness, it's an honor to be able to call him friend Pastor Mike chi. I've actually looked up to Pastor Mike from afar for years, just being one of the innovators. One of the what I would call entrepreneurial pastors of our day, which we're going to talk a little bit about that but obviously the incredible pastor I call them Bishop of Hawaii, but lead pastor of Inspire church along with Pastor Lisa and just their family leading so well on the island and really beyond because Pastor Mike is not only just a pastor, but a podcaster. He is also a world renowned author, a church planter. It's really inspired churches, a movement of churches, as well as businessmen. And maybe some people don't know that about Pastor Mike, but he is a prolific business person as well. And we're going to talk about all the things But Pastor Mike, thank you for being on give it a podcast. Vance's Oh, it is such a privilege and an honor to be with you guys. I love this podcast and listen to a few shows already. And it's already subscribed to it and I really love it. So thank you so much for having me. It's such a such an honor to be in such rarefied air with you guys. I love rarefied air. Let's talk about some rare topics that I don't think oftentime get airtime when people are talking about church building. And I want to dive in with you on it because I consider you one of the pioneers in our modern day of what this looks like. But this is not unbiblical. I mean, we know that Paul was a tentmaker, he was actually a business person. He was entrepreneurial. And you know, I've seen you be what I would consider, like I said, an entrepreneurial pastor, and having so many different streams and organizations and even philanthropic initiatives. How do you balance it all? What's your even just mindset of why you even approached ministry from this lens? Great question Vance. I would say that the way that I balance it all is I have an incredible team. I have, I have so much ideas, so many ideas, so much vision. And and it's sometimes it's hard to keep up with that. And you know, you don't want to keep adding new things, new plates to spin and doing all that different, those kinds of things. But I believe that the Parable of the Talents kind of drives a lot of it. You were either born with it, or you learn it. And so I believe that I was born with maybe a bit and for the church world, those guys who are church leaders who are listening to this I was probably born into a one a two talent situation with five talent potential. So two talents, know average average kid average athlete got to become more than that you got to you got to hustle, you got to go to clinics, you got to practice every single day outside in your garage, shooting hoops or trying to catch a football or whatever, to talent not tall to talent, five talent potential story of my life. I've been in a one talent situation, doing basically by means of my own mistakes. But then also God always turns it around and takes two makes it four takes four makes it eight. And so I believe the capacity that me and my team have grown into is not something that I believe I could have accepted. If someone said here, Mike, now, you will take over this multimillion dollar organization that someone else built. I don't know if I could do that because we had to grow into it. I'm looking at my camera guys and all these guys in the studio and we all had to grow into it. And so it's growing into it. How do we balance it? Well, you go on a wilderness hike for four days, like I told you earlier, you you get off the grid, there's no phone reception, and then you just it's just you alone with your thoughts on a hike and it's crazy, but it was it was brutal but beautiful. At the same time. My goodness. I mean, you know what's so interesting about this is you're highlighting and how important it is to honor the current season that you're in. So if you're going to grow in your capacity, how are you stewarding? What you have right now. So if you started with to stop looking at for honor the two, and watch how God grows that, but let's even go deeper than that or even a prerequisite to that. How does the pastor know? How does it even a church leader or senior church leader know if they should even go on that entrepreneurial path? Is that for everybody? Or is that only for certain people? What's your take? That's a great question. I would say it could be for everybody. But not everybody is like this. They can be though, for example, I would think that pastors number one, have some of the best content out there, out there period, because every single week, we have to come up with one, maybe two messages, minimum, every so you're always studying always gathering you're you're you're collecting information, you're, you're categorizing them, you're cataloging them, you're doing what Solomon did in the book of Ecclesiastes, he categorized them he he catalogued them, and he put them on the side when he talked about the great teacher. So we have the best content. But I also think, even though we might have the best content, we don't necessarily know how to package it. Because we're not necessarily self promoters. So we have a difficult time. Most guys have a difficult time with that, because they just don't know how to package it. So we learned from other people. But when it comes to the question about is, can everybody do this, I would say, a good sign of someone that is an entrepreneur, I would like to call it maybe in the church world apostolic. You're always starting something, you're always starting something. And if you have, you've gone from one campus to two, if you've gone from two to five, if you started a preschool if you started, you know some kind of business, chances are that that pastor has an entrepreneurial gift in them that the church world would call apostolic. And so I think some people can, most can, I think they can, I think it's also cultivated, and for me, it came from my upbringing from my dad. So I just watched him and kind of took my cues from that. I love that, you know, as you're speaking, and you're talking about all these ideas that are in your head all the time. And I would love to know, because I know that there's a lot of people listening who feel this exact same way. How do you know which ideas to actually pursue versus put in the pocket? Maybe say for letter later or abandon altogether? That's a That's a great question. Because I asked myself that question all the time. Like advances sometimes feeding me stuff, hey, you need to do this. And you got all these different friends? And I want if I could do them all I would. But I think one of the in fact, I probably will probably do them all, because they're all great ideas. It's all about what season Am I in? What capacity? Can my team handle? What can Lisa and I do, you know, I've got three girls, three daughters, two of them are married, got one more left in the house. And so it's a season where I want to do as much as I can do. However, I want to spend as much time with her that I can before she graduates next year and goes off to college. And so those are the things that we're weighing now later, or maybe someone else on the team can pick that up. Maybe they can do it. And sometimes one of the hardest things for me to do is actually say, put the restraints on. And you know, vision has restraints. So when you have there's restraints to a vision, so when you have vision, it's kind of like you can't just do anything, you have the restraints, and so you know where you want to go, you know what you want to do. And so if I'm doing too many things, and I'm muddying my vision, and I'm really at the end of the day, I have to take stock in what is God called me to do? And what can my family and what can I personally handle emotionally, physically, spiritually, and all the above? So, I would say that, Zoe, I'd love to do it all, because all good things come across the desk. But it has to be forgive the expression. It's got to be like a heck yeah, eventually, you know what I mean? And I, and I think you have that Hekia? I mean, we say this your No, it actually empowers your Yes. Or, you know, for the purposes of this conversation, you're no empowers your yet. Heck yeah. And, you know, I think that's powerful. One thing I've really admired about you, Pastor Mike is and you said it, you are a leader first. And so you entrust a lot to your team. And I've seen situations where you've wanted to do something or even know you're going to do something, but you really empower your team. What is that balance? What's the balance of when you make an executive decision and say, Hey, team, this is what we're doing, versus Hey, I'm gonna run it through the process because I know that the speed of the vision is also determined by the speed of the team. You know, great question vents. Because when you're great at this, I mean, you must, as a venture capitalist, you must get so many people with a pitch deck, I got a pitch deck for that. Yeah. And you have to look to that pitch deck, but then you can't look through them all, they have to kind of go through a filtering system. And which one say events, you really need to look at this one, okay, I'll look at that. It's kind of the same way. It's the same concept that I have to go through where I have to train my team to be able to make some decisions, and run them through me if I really need to know what's going on. But there is a risk to that there's a risk of them making the wrong decision, there is a risk of, maybe I missed an opportunity. There's, there's all kinds of risks involved. But if I become as we know, John Maxwell, we love Him, we we've spent time with him, it's the law of the lid. And what could happen is not only is there a lid on someone else's potential, but it's a lid, I could be the lid, can I leave the lid? Because if everything's got to pass through Mike eventually, or Lisa, I could be the lid. And so sometimes, to remove the lid, I have to empower them, to forgive the expression but to maybe think like me, the think the way that I would think of course think like Jesus, but think the way that I would think and how I would process and how I would make a decision. And then we debrief that and make sure that what were you thinking sometimes what were you doing? What were you thinking? Sometimes? It was like, Were you even thinking and then the other times it's like, man, that's good thinking? I'm glad you thought that way. So powerful. Don't Don't tell me what to do teach me how to think you're right. Even Paul said, Imitate me as I imitate Christ. But he he said, Imitate me for a reason. But actually Philippians 317 goes on to say, Imitate me and others, who are also following the example of us. And so it's so interesting is that it seems that by design, the Bible teaches us that yes, we need to fix our eyes on Jesus. But he offers up examples, not for greater authority, but for maybe greater inspiration. Because Paul knew that, you know, he wasn't going to live in Palo Alto, Paul knew he wasn't going to live in Honolulu. Right. So it's not just follow me. But it's follow, you know, and that's what you're saying is like, Okay, I am training a team. Tonight, just do what I say. To think how I think so that we can start lifting lids. That's perfect. Yeah, you know, most of us, including myself, we were probably not first round draft picks. You know, we Wow, we were seventh Rounders, eighth, round, eighth and eighth round. We have a team full of Mr. irrelevance. One of the highest compliments a consultant paid me. He said this to me. He says, Mike, I cannot believe the church that you and Lisa have grown. I can't believe that you've led this. I can't believe it. And I was going to finish his sentence because I knew where he was going. He said without any other preaching guns. Here's what he told me. And I said, You know what? I know where you're coming from. I know exactly what you're saying. And you know what? I prided myself. It's kind of like the Miami Heat right now. I got a jersey. I bought it in Miami Vance. I should wear it. Miami. There. What are those guys an undrafted? Those guys are on drafted and all of those guys. They're gonna play in the NBA Finals. They just got buckets. Jimmy buckets, Davey. I mean, so sorry about Bob Meyers. So sorry about the mic. That's my team. My team is the Golden State Warriors. Even before Steph Curry was on that team. I'm talking about Baron Davis. You're talking about Baron Davis. I'm talking Baron Davis. I'm talking about Run, Run TMC Run DMC scoop, right. Somebody who's run teams, he says it he's got it wrong. It's Run DMC. No, no, no. It was it was it was Timmy. It was Mitch hard. Mitch. Mitch and it was what's his name? The lefty who was a lefty Chris, Chris Marlin, rollin T MC. That was the team. Oh, so your old school your your before the bandwagon? Oh, um, you know, I might look young, but I'm older. Just kidding. I used to Filipino blood fans. Hey, it's in there. It's in there. I see. It's there. It's it's a quarter this 1/4 And that's all you need. That's all you need. I love it. So people can pay for people listening on your podcast. Like these are two Filipino boys. Yes, we are. Yes, we are here. We're leading. We're leading. Come on. Yes. And so if I look at the Miami Heat, and if you look at you probably have only one you really got one star player. And that's Jimmy Butler. And then you have great teammates and a great coach and a great system. When you have that man. I tell you what, you don't have to be a first first round draft pick. You can be a seventh round third round. It doesn't matter, it's teamwork. I heard one of the one of the greatest books John Maxwell. By the way, before you say that before you say that Pastor Mike, I need to emphasize this point, the coach of the heat is Filipino, right? Yes, he is. Okay. Let's just, yeah, let's just, let's just agree on that. Janet Filipino podcast. on changing the name. unchanged. We're getting new neon lights. We're getting new down lights. Pinoy power. Let's go. Yeah. But John Maxwell, you're saying? Yeah, John Maxwell, one of the first books that I read. Okay. John Maxwell had like the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, you know, 17, indispensable. I mean, incredible, right? Developing the leader within you developing the leader around you developing the leaders above whatever developing every single leader, the greatest book I ever read from John Maxwell was when I started the church in 2001. And a friend gave me this book, and it was called Partners in prayer. And I said, Oh, dude, this guy's gonna ask me to be my prayer partner. I don't know. I don't know if I'll be my prayer partner, you know. And so he gave me a book called Partners in prayer, John Maxwell, and then began to read the book. And one of the greatest principle I got out of that book was this was not only the power of prayer, that's important. But Unity, that unity was so critical. And I tie that book by John Maxwell and the partners in prayer about unity and how critical that is, with Patrick Lencioni. His book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. And when you look at Yeah, one of the dysfunctions was disunity. He remember he said, I put, I put in a room, all these Harvard MBAs against these other guys that, you know, that just had regular degrees and put them together, the MBAs for some reason could not get it done. But the ones nothing wrong with an MBA, you got to get one if you need one. But the other guys who are of average talent, but they had unity, and the other team didn't, and the one that had the unity, the teamwork went further than the guys with the MBAs. I think that's a I think that's a lot of us. A lot of businesses are like that. I think a lot of churches are like that. And so yeah, that's what I was thinking. For the moment when we got off on the Filipino thing. So good. You know, one of the things that you're talking about his has made me realize that you are an investor and not just financially investing in companies, you invest in people. And I know that a lot of that has to do with because of so many people investing in you growing up, but you don't thinking about how you're an investor. And then also you're getting this book on prayer. And I also know that you're an early investor in prayer.com. Right? Yeah. So I'd love to hear about how you decided to invest in this company, and how prayer actually became a very important thing for you in just outside of your prayer life. Yeah. And I want to couple that with Pastor Mike, as you answered that should tell us about that situation. But then zoom out to how do you underwrite these opportunities? How do you evaluate and assess these deals, these opportunities that you pursue, whether it's financial or with your time and resources, I think this is going to help a lot of our listeners. Okay, yeah, um, so pre.com came along. You know, if you look at the banks not getting a lot of money, you're not getting a great interest rate, you have a stock market, you can get into that. And stock markets can be challenging as well with the market, you can never predict the market. And so what happened was, Matt Potter, the founder of pray.com, got in contact with me, came to Hawaii and spoke at our conference and talked about the app. I love the concept of the app. And one thing that I knew was we needed to galvanize our church around prayer, if we could get them all together around prayer, I think we're going to be okay. And so when he offered up this opportunity to invest six figures in kind of a mid level six figure range, we brought it to our council, we brought it to our board and said, Guys, listen, we got money sitting in the bank, it's actually losing interest because of inflation, or whatever the rate of inflation it is. It's sitting idle, doing nothing, it is not earning anything. We even need to find a harder asset like land, but we need it to be somewhat liquid if we need it in case we build a new building, we buy a new building. And so when Matt from pray.com, approached us and flew us up to LA and come see the operation, because yeah, we had to have eyes on it before we put all that kind of money into it. It actually opened up a whole new opportunity for us to look at an investment portfolio for the church. That was also, you know, in in line with the F the Federal Trade Commission to make sure they had an investment committee. So it wasn't just me making deals with, you know, with good opportunities with new friends. It was me having an investment committee. Thank you. It was an investment committee, that would make the recommendation to the board and then the vote, the final vote would be with the board and so that means you have many eyes on this. It's not Just one person having a passion or a whim on something that they believe is going to be a winner. And so that's how we did it. That's how we vetted through it. So our investment portfolio has includes does include crypto, stocks, bonds, property, and as well as shares in different companies. It's incredible. And I think that's so helpful, insightful and wisdom, the way that you all had structured it, right? It's probably biblical to I mean, isn't there a passage Pastor Mike around even with the prophetic, right? You know, certain prophetic words need to be confirmed? Right, right. And so in the same way, you take these biblical principles, you apply it to business, and there's wisdom in that. It's still Matthew chapter 25. Vance, it still goes back to the parable of the talents. Remember, the guy that buried his talent? Yep, he buried it. And Jesus told him, you know, you could have at least put it in the bank where it could have earned interest. At the very least, you could earn some interest. And so it's taking multiplying what God gave you, and then having a level of liquidity and when you need it, then you pull it out. And then you end up, you know, buying the asset or paying off the asset. And so, I think grew up like this. I was kind of trained like this, and I picked it up along the way. So yeah, good stuff. Brilliant. So I want to go off script a little bit, because you're sparking so many ideas for me. And this is a podcast that aims to bridge the gap between technology and the local church. What are you excited about right now? Pastor Mike, because I consider you an innovative Pastor, I consider you somebody that's always pioneering, always wanting to be on the cutting edge early into things early adopting, things like that. Are you reading stuff on AI right now? Or are you thinking about the applications for that in the church? Are you still focused on blockchain? And crypto? Like, what? What are you reading about? What are you on the forefront of right now, as it relates to applying innovative things to the church space? Yeah, great question. I owe it to some degree, I've always felt like I'm not ahead of the curve, but a little bit behind the curve. Definitely not at the bottom of the bell curve, or the sigmoid. I'm definitely not at the bottom. What I think is Ai i what I've gathered enough information to have a decent opinion on artificial intelligence. And this is what I want to say, man, now anybody can write a sermon on AI. Chat, GPT, you just put in give you and that's like, I'm gonna have to question everybody from this moment on. Did you come up with that? Or did chat GPT give that to you? That's, I mean, I see this technology as being I mean, light, like, just like, like landing on the moon. But I'm not really excited about it, to be honest with you. I am, I'm kind of I'm concerned that it could create jobs. Number one, but probably remove more jobs and create Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not an economist, but just by reading what I've read. The other part is there's going to be a lack of originality. I think it's going to remove a heart from a piece of paper. I believe that there's it is artificial, and it's going to sound beautiful. I think people are going to be writing books to check GPT I don't think it's going to be as authentic as it could be. So even though I'm a little concerned about it, how do you how do you maximize it? Rather than calling it evil or not good, or at the worst evil or the other part disingenuous? You know, how do you do that? I'm not sure that I would like to leverage it. At the same time to be able to do what we need to do. But But I want to be very, very careful in that space. Until I get some good counsel on that Vance, you'd probably have good counsel for me offline as well. And I would love to know what you guys think about AI. Because you guys, this is your this is your area. This is your my, my my insight, from what you just said is this. I think there's a lot of wisdom in identifying, hey, I'm not an early adopter, but I'm definitely not the at the end of the bell curve. I allow other industry experts to maybe forge a way and to make the mistakes and I learned from that mistakes. And then and then I move forward and strength for my context. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. Oh, you know, our take in AI, we actually talk about it probably every other episode Hunza to give it a podcast because it's just, you know, it's kind of like, you know, 10 years ago, Andreessen Horowitz, one of the most famous investors wrote this article, software's eating the world. It seems like we're at another inflection point where AI is eating the world, just in terms of like the watercooler talk and things like that. I do believe what you just said is true that it's going to displace a ton of jobs. I think it's going to displace a lot of knowledge work that can just be done. Then by AI, you just think about accountants, you think about people that do financial models even just think about remedial legal steps and incorporation documents. And all of that can be learned through a corpus of data, and just be done in a 10th of the time, and probably more accurate through AI. So a lot of knowledge work is going to be displaced. My optimistic view is this is that, because we're going to be able to do a lot of the lower level tasks automatically and easily, it's going to free up humanity to solve bigger problems, right. And so I actually think that those people that are going to be displaced, they have a choice, they either can go into areas where jobs are not being displaced. So for example, a landscaper, for example, you know, there's certain service industry jobs that can't be replaced by AI today until we get to the Terminator stage of robots, but we're not there yet. And so there's a choice, you can either go that route, or you can actually go the entrepreneurial route. And you can leverage this baseline. So think of all the app ideas that you have in your brain, Pastor Mike, but you're limited, because you don't have enough coders to be able to build the app that you want to build in your brain. AI can just cut it for you now. And so I think what it's going to do is going to unleash a new stage of creativity and entrepreneurship to actually allow more and more It's kind of like what Instagram did with democratizing photography. Now, everybody's like a decent photographer. Right? Everybody's a model, everybody. Everybody's a model. Okay, so fasten my truly passers Gen Z. And so and so that's what it is. Right? So it's democratized that I mean, YouTube has democratized creation. So now everybody can have some level of an audience. Right? And so now, if AI can code for you, everybody is going to be on some level, an app developer that can solve certain problems that maybe they couldn't solve without it. Because they didn't know any coders. They didn't know any engineers. They didn't know how to learn engineering themselves. What's your take, though? Yeah, I mean, Vance, and I recorded an episode strictly on this. And I basically opened up the episode by saying, I'm terrified that robots are going to eat me. And by the end of the episode, he had my mind fully changed to now having an optimistic view and finding ways to integrate AI as a supplement, and making sure that we have guardrails in place, so that it's only as a supplement, not as the main driver, because that's where it gets dangerous, is Vance, you obviously say it a lot better than I am. But whenever you ask it, how to make it better moving forward, that's when you give it the scary level of autonomy to then become a monster that will eat you. It's called, it's called singularity. I think we're a little bit for further away from that than people think we are. There are there is caution to the wind on it. I'm not fully bullish on it. But this is where I think the importance of the local churches, right, the local church, I believe, should be the central point of society. We've seen it in history, where when that's happened, a lot of times Society continues to move forward morally, definitely. Society flourishes, right in a lot of different aspects. Because the Bible is undefeated, the Bible has the best trues The Bible has first principles. And so what I'm excited about and why we have started this podcast is we want to have these conversations so that we can break off fear and intimidation, off of the church, the local church to be able to embrace these technologies. Yeah, because God help us if the church is not embracing these and leading the way. Like, I really don't, I really don't want others to be doing that. And, and Pastor Mike, something that's been inspiring and we can close with this, to me is your incredible mixture of spiritual development and leadership, alongside business we've talked a lot about in this podcast already, but also even just civic engagement and finding your voice there, obviously, between governments, local governments and national governments, understanding our history, to inform where we're going, and combining all the talents that God has given you. Why do you think it's important to have a voice to engage your community civically as well? If we don't, someone else is going to fill that void, and we can see where the country is heading. I think, you know, Vance, I don't know if you know this, but I did a podcast interview of eight mayoral candidates for the City and County of Honolulu. I didn't see it yet. I need to catch up while you Yeah, let's uh, well, it was a while back and okay, I wanted to inform my church about who's running and what. And here's the standard five questions. I'm asking everybody, Republican or Democrat, it didn't matter. I even did that this past year with the governor's race, that I hit up all the governor's candidate gubernatorial candidates, and I asked them, would they be willing to come on my podcast, and be able to put that on YouTube. And that way, our church would know what each person stood for. I think that it's important for us to know church history, we need to know American history, and in addition to biblical excuse me, just got hit by my microphone. Biblical history, we need to know world history. I think history is such a great teacher for all of us. And so this is where we know that if we can we we've been called to be in every sphere of society, every single sphere, from education, to health care to you. Arts and Entertainment. Now you got to add athletics is maybe a separate mountain, because now athletes are very empowered today to speak their minds. And that's what they're doing. So maybe if there's seven mountains, gates, fears, streams, rivers, whatever, calling them, but they're legit, I think the most important one is the church sphere. And everything else should be revolving around that. So people who are believers in Christ who are watching this podcast, we are called to be into every single sphere of society and make a difference. The challenge is, because politics is such a dirty work, it can be dirty work, that a lot of Christians said, I'm not gonna go into that, because that's dangerous, and I don't want to lose my integrity. And so it's getting filled with people who have different intentions. And so we should go into every single one, we should be in there from the tech space to government. Do not let fear rule if you're going to go into that space or not. Let's be led by the Holy Spirit, and ladies and gentlemen. Hmm, such an honor to even say this, my friend, but also what I would consider one of my mentors, and one of the most incredible pastors that I know, Pastor Mike, we are so thankful for your nuggets of wisdom. We're so thankful for showing up in these conversations. And for whatever space that we're in that this reaches, we hope that you've just been so blessed, Pastor Mike, what are ways you would want people to connect with you or anything that you would want to highlight? We want to make sure we'll put it in the show notes as well. But anything that you want to highlight? Yeah, I would, first of all events. I want to highlight you, bro. Your gas man. Look at you. You're you and Kim are amazing what you guys are doing with vive what you do with with overflow and everything else that you've got going on. And your beautiful kids. Lisa and I would just want to we wish we lived closer together. We wish we lived. There was no Pacific Ocean. That's okay. We'll come over there. That's okay. Yeah, you need to come over, we come over we even remember we're gonna do an Innovate conference. We Hey, do one. That's right, we need to do a try. We need to do one. So we're gonna do that. Okay, I think the best place you can find me is Mike chi.tv. That's the best place. It'll point you to whatever I do. And It'd be an honor just to say hi to anybody that wants to show up on that. And I'm grateful to be with you guys. Oh, you're you're such a great podcast friend. She Yeah, I listened to you. So it's a great site. I don't wanna call your sidekick, but such a great. No, it's true. I'm Robin. He's Batman. Yes. And you are really good at that. You're really good at that. And, and I really highly recommend this podcast. I can't I can't tell you enough. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Thanks so much for listening to the give it up podcast if you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture, and giving. Now you can sign up for free to be an overflow insider, where you'll receive exclusive content discounts direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered. And also invite only access to our monthly fundraising leadership forums, head to overflow.co backslash insider, or just click the link in our bio to sign up for free today. In order to get this podcast in the ears of even more church leaders. Could you please subscribe and leave a review for the show. This tells the podcast players what people are enjoying and want to hear more of and we are adamant about providing maximum value to even more church leaders. Thanks so much. We'll see you next time.