60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The ultimate goal is to live like no one else so you can give like no one else getting debt free and to just savings is actually not the totality of God's plan for your life. Totality of God's plan is how do you take whatever God gave you not just save it, but invest in a pastor turn tech leader and a millennial churchgoer, exploring the intersection of technology, culture and faith, equipping you with innovative strategies to support you as you live out your calling leader churches with confidence to step into the future together. This is the give it up podcast. Vance, there's been a lot in the news lately about debt in America and not just like the debt ceiling, but I found this startling, I don't know if you know the stat 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Wow. Are you surprised by that? I don't want to be like, but no, like, I feel like I have a lot of friends are kind of in that boat, unfortunately. And I don't understand how we keep getting to this place. Because it's not like it's a surprise, like, oh, strapped again this month. And so I want to talk about Dave Ramsey a little bit today. Okay, because you better for Dave. Yes. Give it up for Dave Ramsey. Because Financial Peace University was literally created to help believers get out of debt. You know a little bit about their team. You kind of were associated a bit. You didn't like a competition. Talk. Talk to us about the physical story. No, I was oh, my gosh, I moved the table. I was auditioning to become a Ramzi personality. That's right. That's right. What was that process? Like? Oh, it is? It's literally a one and a half to two year process. No way that people so well. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Okay. What were some takeaways from that process? Some takeaways was that there's some insight, give us the background. They're so big on culture. Yeah. I mean, they have a team of probably almost 2000 People now. That is correct. And they always meet in person. Love that. Like there has never been any, like COVID restrictions, like work from home. I think it was like for two are they based in Nashville, Tennessee. Hey, guys, Franklin, Tennessee, more specifically, a cold cold. Yeah. But the team is awesome. And Dave is the real deal I got to meet. He's, he's so awesome. Yeah. But it's really inspiring seeing someone who has quite literally been talking about the same thing. That's right. For 30 years straight, hasn't changed his tune. Right, one inch. And it's still impacting millions of people. Yeah. Which means this problem of debt is not going away. Right. And also grateful that he's there to solve the problem. Because ultimately, the reason he he did this, I don't know if you know this, but he went bankrupt. I've heard the story. Yeah. So it's a really powerful story. And so I love everything that he's teaching people, because the ultimate goal is to live like no one else. So you can give like no one else, which I think is on par. What? With what are passionate? Yeah, yeah, we want to flow from that. Exactly. Yeah, we want to extend that. And I want to talk about today some of the ways in which you believe because we're in a very different area, right? We're in the Silicon Valley. That's right. Where money flows differently. Yes. All together. Dave Ramsey is fully under the belief that cash is king. Yes. And I would love to hear your thoughts on that working in the tech hub of the world. Well, I think obviously, Dave is onto something. He's built an incredible organization helping people get out of the shackles of debt. I mean, it's biblical, right? The Bible actually talks about this, that we are not meant to be debtors. Totally. And that's in so many different facets spiritually. I mean, we know that's true. And thank you. For the grace of God. Yes. For Jesus that cancels our debt. And that's spiritually speaking. But it's likened to financial, right? I mean, finances and spirituality are actually very intertwined. The Bible talks about your heart is so connected to your money. And that interesting that you know, where your money goes, where your treasure is, your heart then will follow. Yeah. And so the Bible does talk about we are not meant to be in debt. We're not meant to be enslaved to debt. And what Dave Ramsey is doing is definitely and his team is definitely well within what the Bible talks about. I think, for me, and for us at overflow, what we're really excited about, is to really just extend that legacy, right into new areas, new spheres, new time periods, new mindsets, right. I think that there are certain mindsets around, you know, even just the use of credit cards. I think for most people, the adage that you shouldn't even use a credit card to cut all of your credit cards. You know, that probably is the best. Yeah, right. Right. You know, you talk to a savvy millennial, that might not jive well, right, right, because As of things like points, total reward system, yeah, and things like that. But even going a step further than just credit cards, and things of that nature, I think what's interesting is how do we extend the principles of God beyond debt? into investing? Yeah. Right. So if we want to take another biblical principle, really actually, getting out of debt is step one, but not the totality of God's purpose for somebody's life. Right? Actually, maintenance, the Bible says is wicked. We've actually talked about that maybe a few times in different conversations. But, you know, Jesus talks about the parable of the talents. Yep. And the person that actually just gives back, what God gave to him is wicked and lazy, crazy. So the principle of Heaven is not maintenance, the principle of Heaven is multiplication. It's great. And so getting out of debt, yes, great is step one, don't get enslaved to the bondage of what debt is. But how do you go beyond even just maintenance, because converting, getting debt free, and to just savings is actually not the totality of God's plan for your life? The totality of God's plan is how do you take whatever God gave you not just save it, but invest it? Right? How do you invest it? How do you work it? How do you multiply it? And I think that's what overflow is all about. We talk to churches all the time. And one of the hesitations right, as a pastor will tell us, I love what you guys are doing at a run. I love how people will just start that, you know, encouraging, I love what you guys are doing. I'd overflow. But you know, there's so many big the sandwich technique. There's so many big butts, it's a compliment sandwich. I get it, I get it, you know, we do it. You know, but I don't think there's anybody in our congregation that have stocked to get right, that have investments to get right. To which I say, what an opportunity. What an opportunity. I mean, if you're saying that nobody in your congregation is investing, why not? Why shouldn't we as shepherds, right, pastors are shepherds, right? Why shouldn't we, as shepherds guide the flock guide the people of God guide the saints, into prosperity into provision into the way in which not only do we have maintenance, but we have the miracle of multiplication, we have the miracle of wealth generation, why not because of ourselves as a kingdom perspective? Yeah, but so that we can bless others. So that's what I think I'm excited about to extend. Maybe Dave Ramsey, and his team have just pioneered is financial wellness to me, goes beyond getting out of debt. Let's do that. Yep. But then beyond that, let's think about investing. Totally, no, I, I love this idea we're talking about and to give more color to the credit card, cutting up the credit card thing, because for the longest time, I was like, okay, but this is like, what if I'm good with it, and like, I use a credit card as if it's a debit card, you know, and I'm not like going over anything like that. But Dave's whole concept is the entire system of credit cards is out to get you Sure. And it's out to take advantage of the people that can't pay it back. So he's like, for that reason, get rid of it altogether. And you can underwrite a house and all that. But I think one of the hurdles we face comes on the back of that, because they pit certain currencies against one another. Sure, as if I can't have the ability in my church for people to accept crypto, because crypto is bad, right? Crypto is gambling of sorts, so people can see it like that, which in many respects, it could be that. But also, if people are using it as an investment tool, then why would we not open all the doors of opportunity for that? Oh, yeah, given? I mean, it's the same thing with anything that's new, right? It's not that these things are inherently evil, they're actually a moral. A lot of the times these are tools, right? It's the human heart that can contextualize it as being used for good or being used for evil. And so I would agree, I would say that, you know, whether it's credit cards or whether it's crypto, the reality is there are people that can use it, for things that are not good. And there are people that can be succumb to it for their destruction, right? We know biblically that there is an enemy that is trying to steal, kill, and destroy. But that doesn't mean that we then hide out and we fortify Sure. And we, you know, my pastor says, you know, we're not meant to like go in the boondocks and get into a little trailer and put moss at the top so satellites can see is that what we're meant to do? We're not Amish. Yeah. Right. Is is we're actually meant to understand that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. And so the biblical narrative is actually so much about redemption, not hiding away. Right? And so how can we use these things as tools? Okay, cool. Like if it is a temptation, and you don't have control of the ability to have a credit card and be disciplined about that? Sure. I mean, if you have certain proclivities, then cut it out of your life, but for most things, actually the right answer, or maybe the more practical answer is how do you use that as an opportunity to exercise discipline? Discipline is a fruit of the Spirit. Right? And so instead of removing it from your life, like it's this big bag, scary thing that oh, if I just, it's gonna burn a hole in my pocket, I just need to swipe it. I need to swipe. Right. Instead of thinking about that, how can you leverage it? Right? So even just the whole thing about, okay, we're only gonna buy our house in cash. You're gonna be saving for a long time in a Silicon Valley. Yeah. Like, like, like a bad house is over a million dollars. Right? Easy, right? In the Silicon Valley. And so how many people are missing out in things like good debt, right? Things that actually have an investment element to it, especially if it's your primary household? I've gotten into houses and I financed it, I find it it's a portion of it. I tried to put as much down payment as I can, because I want to be able to afford my monthlies, right comfortably. That is stewardship. Yeah, but some of these investments, right, especially in markets, like the Silicon Valley, have been some of the best Wealth Generators for me and my family, right. And so it's not a knock on some of these principles that have been taught to us, especially within the church. But it's more of expanding our perspectives of Hey, God can work in other ways. He's not confined to a limited set of ways that he can work. Sure. Yeah. I love that distinction, because these ideas can run parallel to one another. Yeah. Because they're both ending with the same goal. And that's to give like no one else. I want to talk about the effects of debt and what it can do to people. Yes. And I find the stat that 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's crazy. I find that interesting when I hear the statistic that 67% of millennials consider themselves philanthropist. Interesting. So if they're both in the 60 percentile, yeah, then that means some of these people are living paycheck to paycheck while also giving the very last dollar seemingly, right. That's what it feels like. So let's talk about the effects that happen when you have debt. Because I think a lot of people don't realize just how deeply ingrained debt impacts your life. Oh, yeah. You have a creativity block. Because how can you think about creating something when you have to think about your four walls and just being secure? Yeah. Imagine the anxiety knowing that I owe 1000s of dollars back to the government for student loans. Yeah. And that burden, and cloud does not come off for you until that last dollar is deposited, and you're free again. It just like it breaks my heart because the debt doesn't just happen with our money. I think we're in so much debt with our time, too. Yeah. Like, how few people do we know that are genuinely generous with their time, like would drop at a moment's notice? To help you? Right? Yeah. And I know this stat that is really mind blowing. This is one of like, my biggest passions is 70% of people don't have a single person that they could call in the middle of a crisis for help. So interesting. Debt, I feel like is underpinning of lot of issues. Yeah. For us. It's not just our finances, but our entire soul keeping us limited. Yes. Yeah. I mean, debt is a big danger. Right debt, I think you've exposed some of the ways that it manifests itself. And so to debt, I would say the first thing is get discipline. Right, right. Right. If you're hurting and dead, if if you're a church leader, and you're leading people that are in debt, the first ingredient is to get discipline is to actually start living by principles. You know, the first thing I actually teach to somebody, and this might seem counterintuitive, is when they tell me that they're drowning in debt, and they can't get ahead and they're financially in bondage. And it doesn't seem like they can actually grow in their finances and their bank balances and things like that. The first thing that I asked him and this might seem kind of like harsh or even crazy, I say, Are you tithing? If they're in our church, and they're seeking help, yep. Why would with why why would I withhold the principles of God? Yeah, for their life. The Bible says, Bring all the tithes into the storehouse and see if I will not open up a window of heaven and pour out a blessing so large that you would not have room to contain it. God's window is so much bigger than even our room. Yeah. Yeah. And so how do we make more room for God to bless us? We have to honor him with a portion of our room so that he can fill it so that he can exceed it. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, I asked that. And then the response typically is, well, Vance, I just told you, I was in debt, I can't afford to tie to which I say you can't afford not to. Right. Because the way that you've been doing it, obviously, is not working. Most of the time, you know, outside of maybe student debt, which is maybe a unique thing. But most of the time, especially if you're in credit card debt, it basically means that you're living off 110. And that's what a lot of my friends do. They don't even want to look at their bank account, because there's so much anxiety. They don't want to see that negative balance, but bank balance, they want to see that overdraw. Yeah, you know, and things like that. And so they're typically, you know, making 100, for example, and spending 110 Each month with a tide does, it forces you to live on 90. But the tide does is it sets a principle in motion in your life that, hey, I'm going to no matter what, regardless, I'm going to recognize that, at the end of the day, if I believe God, then I believe that he's a good father, and he's my provider. So I'm gonna honor Him and declare His provision now over my finances. And so that's just an example. I mean, that's not the only thing that people need to do. But it's an example of discipline, am I willing to put some disciplines in my life? And then I think that outside of that people don't realize that there's a whole nother game to be played, which is growth? Yeah, right. And so a lot of times what people will do is focus so much on trying to cut expenses, and focus so much on trying to save it save money that they don't think creatively about how to make more money. Right? And so there's this whole element of okay, you know, what's in your hand, when God says, I shall supply all of your needs, that's not literally money's gonna come from the sky. I think Manna came down from heaven in the Bible, but like, I've never seen it. And so it's probably not going to come from this guy, that's likely not going to happen, probably not. But when the Bible says he's going to supply all your needs, what it means is, I've given you everything that you need to partner with me, right? I've given you gifts, I've given you talents. And when we talk about the parable of the talents, we're not just talking about financially investing, invest in your skill sets, and see if that not see if that won't open up provision, new provision, and you're alive, right. And so I think those are different ways. It's like discipline, but it's also you're actually seeing an early creativity. I think the tithe is one of the most important disciplines because if you start tithing, it makes investing into retirement accounts, for instance, so much easier. Interesting, because this concept of it's not mine anyways. So good. It makes it so so simple. When ever it automatically takes money out of your bank account each month. You're like, yeah, it wasn't mine. Anyways, I'm putting it away for the future was this topic for you? And Jared, when you guys got married? Was it a hot topic? Or were you guys were just completely aligned immediately? We crazy enough? We're completely aligned. Cool immediately. And I know that's probably rare. In fact, the the stats show that most people are not aligned financially. Um, but yeah, it's, it's really looking long term. And I'm not notoriously a long term thinker. I'm very emotionally driven, which is great. But I have a husband who is not. Yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. I love that. But, you know, we have friends who they're in their 40s. And they don't have they didn't have a single penny set aside for retirement. Okay. Like we recently were like, We need to have an intervention with them. Because they're not thinking about the long term impacts, and how their family down the road will be impacted by that, as well. And yes, it's not sexy to like, think about retirement, because I want to live now in the moment. But everything we do when it comes to like tithing as well, it's this whole concept of, I'm investing in something that's bigger than me, and something that isn't even necessarily for me, but just to honor God or honor my family down the road. And so that's kind of the lens in which we see it through now is like, we're honoring, whenever we're tithing, and we're investing. I love that. And you know, I think the point of this especially for church leaders, pastors, senior church leaders, executive teams, for communities, faith communities, specifically is we're talking about people in our circle that are struggling with finances. Why wouldn't the church rise up in this time to be able to provide programs, people, mentors, resources to be able to pour into people. And yes, whether it's okay, let's start with Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University and get debt free, or starting to invest into your church and teaching them what it means to actually generate wealth. Yeah, right. Something that we spend a lot of time here at Vive is okay, maybe a big proportion of our church are not necessarily struggling with debt. But what we do try to cultivate is this spiritual spirit of entrepreneurship that's naturally here, right. And so if people are looking for their next step in financial freedom, really a lot of that unlock comes in your ability to be entrepreneurial, your ability to be a maker, a creator, your ability to own certain assets and to grow certain things. And so we talk a lot here about that at five church, because if we want to actually make an impact, right, in society, if we want to infiltrate their different spaces and spheres, it's gonna require resources. Yeah, it's gonna require people in prominent places. This is biblical. Daniel, in the Bible, if you actually read the book of Daniel, you could see that he got elevated to especially after the lions den and all that if you're in Sunday school, you know, I'm talking about he got elevated to the Bible says master of the Magi. Okay, who are the Magi, the Magi were their advisors to the king. The Magi were kingmakers the Magi, were congressmen, Congresswoman politicians, people of prestige. When you say king maker and men, they're the ones who appointed the people in charge. These were well respected people in the Bible says Daniel, was the master of the Magi. How crazy is that? That a man of God that got imprisoned in a dungeon for his faith? Because, you know, they said, Hey, if you pray, you know, you're going to go and he said, Okay, let me open up the window. Yeah, you know, let me open up the window and actually show you how I pray, you know, a man of faith was promoted was elevated by God to be the master of the magic, check this out. What's so interesting about that story is that we see, hundreds of years later, right? Who were the first people that identified the Savior, as Jesus when He was born in a major, the Magi. That's the first time I thought about that, the Magi. So there was this Magi, people in the eastern Persian Empire culture, that had handed down prophecies from Daniel, for hundreds of years, because Daniel was in a place of prominence, he was able to teach the Hebrew tradition to Persian people of influence, and tell them of a day that will come that there will be a Messiah, that saves the world. Right. And at that time, maybe the Magi just thought it was just talking smack. Maybe the Magi was like, I don't know what you're talking about. What was interesting is in the Persian tradition, their religion was actually a study of the stars. And so that was also passed down. So check this out. There's two simultaneous things happening. The study of the stars is being passed down Magi, people to Magi, people, to Magi, people. And so what signaled the magi to even check out what was happening with this person that was born in a major a star, because something had happened. Yeah, that had never happened in the sky before. And so they they were following that star. So their religion, Buddhism, Islam, atheism, the worship of technology, whatever their religion was, was forcing them to follow this star. And then when they met Jesus in person, all of a sudden, all that residual teaching of what Daniel had taught to their people, about this Hebrew God, about this Messiah that was going, going to come all started clicking in one moment. And the first people to ever identify Jesus as Savior and Lord, were Gentiles. That's crazy. And so when I talk about resources, when I talk about cultivating your skill set, when I talk about entrepreneurship, when I talk about believing God to elevate you in prominent places, I'm not talking about it on a level just because it's cool for you. I'm talking about it on a level that this is generation impacting the balance. The balance is held by this plan that God had So to partner with you that whether it's for your children, or whether it's for 400 years down the line, could you make yourself available to live by principle, to invest your money and your skill sets so that you can start thinking generationally so that you can start thinking about legacy? I have nothing else. That was, that was amazing. I just, I keep getting so excited about the concept of like, How can I invest not financially, but with my time, like thinking of everything in our lives as an investment in our faith in our walk with God in our relationship with our spouses, with our families, like with the church, man, the possibilities here are endless credit. And one of the key ways to start investing is to first make it a priority, make it a priority to get out of debt. It's a door and a pastor listening to this, if you're a church leader, if you're a small group leader, if you have any sort of influence within your church, and there's people following you. Why don't you consider adding into your leadership mix? The discussions around finances, you would be surprised how many people might reveal to you this is a stressor in their life. You'd be surprised how many people are so locked up with anxiousness about this topic, but what a great thing that you're in their life and what a great thing that you listen to this podcast. So good. Give it up for Dave Ramsey. Let's go getting out of debt. And the principle investing and tithing. Love it. Boom. Thanks so much for listening to the give it up podcast if you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture, and giving. Now you can sign up for free to be an overflow insider where you'll receive exclusive content discounts direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered. And also invite only access to our monthly fundraising leadership forums, head to overflow.co backslash insider, or just click the link in our bio to sign up for free today. In order to get this podcast in the ears of even more church leaders. Could you please subscribe and leave a review for the show? 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