In this episode, Vance and Zoe sit down with Taylor Hiott, a serial entrepreneur and the founder of Kingdom Empowered. He also is a millennial crypto donor (yes, they are real) and we discussing his thoughts on the crypto market, why he donates crypto vs. cash, handling dips in the crypto market and more! If you're interested in the future of giving, and staying on top of finance trends your church can prepare for now, then you will love this episode!
To follow Taylor's newest business, search @KingdomEmpowered on all social platforms, and check out the Kingdom Empowered website HERE.
This podcast is presented by Overflow, the most powerful giving platform on the planet. Giving cash, stock, or crypto to your church or non-profit has never been easier. Visit overflow.co to experience and step into future of giving.
If you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture, and giving, now you can sign up for free to be an Overflow Insider, where you'll receive exclusive content, discounts, direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered, and also invite-only access to our monthly Fundraising Leadership Forums! Head to overflow.co/insider now!
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One of my buddies in college back in 2010 told me about Bitcoin. I had 600 Bitcoin back then. And I sold them all when they hit 20 bucks apiece and I thought I was rich. I thought I had all the money in the world, I just see so much potential in it. I think it's a lot easier to look at or to invest in or to read and maybe some more traditional investment places. A pastor turn tech leader and a millennial churchgoer, exploring the intersection of technology, culture and faith, equipping you with innovative strategies to support you as you live out your calling leader churches with confidence to step into the future together. This is the give it up podcast. What is up guys, and welcome back to the give it up podcast today. I'm actually really excited about this episode, because it's a very unique perspective that we believe the church needs to hear more of because Vance and I all the time at overflow, get the question from people will do. Are there actually people out there that want to donate crypto and want to donate any non cash assets at all? And today, we have a resounding yes for you because we have brought into the podcast, an exclusive interview with a crypto donor, both of our friends this is Taylor height. No. Is it now an exclusive interview interview? I feel I feel good about that. It's a it's a crypto investor sighting. Right, right, right. I'm here. They do exist out in the real world. Yes. And we're pumped to talk to you today, Taylor, because you're going to I feel like revitalize a lot of people's spirits when it comes to giving. And we hear a lot of church leaders saying recently, man, like givings been down like market downturn. It's just been really deflating. But then we have you who has a completely different perspective, which I really want to dig into. And so I think before we get into you given crypto and that being part of your generosity angle, I want to talk about how you got into crypto to begin with, why would someone want to invest in a volatile crypto market? Yeah, funny story. One of my buddies in college, back in 2010, told me about Bitcoin. I had 600 Bitcoin back then. And I sold them all when they hit 20 bucks apiece, and I thought I was rich. I thought I had all the money in the world. It was like, you know, it's $18,000 or something which are $12,000 Is it as a college student, I really was rich, like I was loaded, we went out we had great time. But crypto has been this thing for me that now I've obviously gotten back into it took a break for a couple years. And I just see so much potential in it. And I think it's a lot easier to look at or to invest in or to read and maybe some more traditional investment places. I don't consider myself much of like a stock market kind of person, right? If I want to invest in the stock market, then I'm probably going to put it in like a mutual fund ETF, I'm going to call a broker and have them do it for me. But crypto is something that I can do. I can get in I can get out of I can do all these kinds of things. So I really enjoy and I see a lot of potential for the future use of it as well, which is one of the big reasons why I am in crypto. So that's so interesting. Taylor, you said you connected with it more than the stock market? Can you pull on that thread? A little bit more? What does that mean? Yeah, so the thing is, is that okay, so if you look at the stock market, you look at at any company, you look at any shares, right, so let's look at somebody like Tesla, right? Tesla's shares can go up and down based on what Elon Musk's tweets, or how many cars they deliver, or how many cars they make, or how many pre sales they have for the cyber truck, or whatever it is. And it's like, I have no idea how to track that down. I know you can I know there are people who are experts at that, right. With crypto, what really drove me into it at the beginning is that it's dependent on the people is dependent on the market, right? If a theorem goes up or down, it's because somebody's decided to develop something new with it. Somebody's come up with a super cool new use case for it, or people see a future for it. And it's based on people's perception. And I actually think it's a lot easier to read people's perceptions of something than it is how many cars somebody is going to make or how many laptops Apple is going to ship out. Wow. So stock market crypto. On some level, you're saying they're both based on perception. But you can read the crypto side of it more than even the stock side. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's because like to be completely fair, like I'm I'm a target market fit for crypto, right? I'm a young guy in America to be frank and I have some disposable income. And so it makes sense for me to be looking at it me to be reading it me to be, you know, reading into it. You know, in the crypto world, we get into discord and stuff like that and were chatting with other people who were who are doing this. And the thing is, is I'm in discord channels with other people who, I mean, they have so much more money than me, it's not even silly, and they've been doing it for longer than I have. And to try to talk to somebody on wall street who's been there for 20 years. I mean, that's impossible. Right. And so it's this collaborative thing. I think it's this community based thing. I think that people in general push it which way it's gonna go for the time being just because there aren't a ton of you know, regulation, regulations and that kind of thing around it, but I enjoy it more. I think it's more applicable to me. Wow, that is so fascinating. You know, tailor the church from our personal experience. I would say the church more so than the rest of society is very scared of crypto so much so that it's controversial in some spaces. Can Can you speak to that and kind of talk about misconceptions and something that you wish the church genuinely knew about crypto? Sure, people don't like anything they don't understand. Right? And and that's the main point with crypto and that's why if you watch the news, you'll see all this you know, basically just talking about about crypto and all this kind of stuff. And if you when you go into the church or you go into really anywhere people just don't understand it why? Why would we go online and use Bitcoin? What even is Bitcoin? Is it a physical coin? Do I keep it in my wallet? Like people just don't understand it. But I would relate this I mean, in people may call me crazy for this. But you know, back when there were horse and buggies, everybody said, Well, why do we need cars? We already have horses and buggies. We don't need this right? When? When the internet came out, when Amazon came out, right? People were like, well, we have Barnes and Nobles. We have borders, like why do we need to buy books online? It doesn't make any sense, right? And I think it's just people are scared of what they don't understand. And I would love for some people to just do a little bit more research. And you don't have to get as crazy deep into it. But for me, I mean, honestly, also, when you talk about giving, you know, you talk about giving to the church and stuff. There are also tax benefits. There's so many different things that come into play that I think if people just knew and people understand then it I think it makes a lot more sense to me personally. One thing that you said Taylor, that was interesting is you like crypto because you can go in and out really quickly. Right. And so to your point about, you know, who said we needed cars when we had, you know, horses and buggies and hindsight, what cars has done is it's revelate revolutionize transportation. How do you see crypto revolutionising money? Finances, financial technology? I mean, how far down the Sci Fi route? Do you want me to go here? Let's go. Right, give it up for the Sci Fi route. I mean, when you start talking about like how far it could go, I mean, everybody you say the word NF T's right? And everybody just immediately thinks of like, dumb cartoon drawings of dogs or monkeys or whatever it is, right. And granted, that's where you know, there was some popularity a year or two ago, but NF T's these non fungible tokens. I mean, one day they could be used for deeds of houses, they could be used for deeds of cars, they anything of value could be assigned in an NF T. And if I want to sell Vance my house, he buys the NFT for me, and now Hey, guess what the House has Vance's right? I think that there's so much possibility with the thing that really Bitcoin and crypto really, really established, right? Was this idea that the blockchain, okay, I'm not going to try to explain what the blockchain is. But it's essentially a ledger. Okay. It's a receipt book. That's really all it is. And what it really established was the fact that it can't be broken. It can't be hacked, it can't be changed. It's there. And it's adopted and kept track of by hundreds of 1000s or millions of people, right. And so it's always being checked on to make sure that it's right. And so when you start looking at that, I think that there's also I mean, you hear all about all these crazy things of corruption. And, you know, there's so many different ways that you could go with this, you hear and you hear about banks failing. You hear about Silicon Valley Bank, you hear about all these different kinds of stuff, right? And I'm not talking about about banks, but at the end of the day, if everything was kept on a public ledger that every bank ever does. A lot of this stuff wouldn't happen it would be caught before it happens. Right? And I just think that it's a, it's an emerging technology, that we don't even really know what the full use case of it is yet, which is why people like me are investing in it. Because I think that there are a lot of use cases for it. And I want to get in early. It's incredible. I love that, you know, I want to talk about because you're pretty innovative tailor just all the way around even I mean, it's clear just from how you think about investment strategies, which then leads me to the question, have you had the idea to what if I give crypto and for some context, from my knowledge is Taylor goes to my church? And so Taylor has investments in crypto and actually approached our pastor and said, Hey, can we create a way where I can actually give crypto instead of cash or credit? To which the pastor said, oh, yeah, if that's something you want to do, like, let me look into it. So then a platform for giving the crypto became available. And Taylor gives crypto as instead of cash and credit card. And, you know, we share this story with church leaders often, because there's a couple different things to think through and pull from the story is one, these people are out here. But I'm thinking of the person who is like Taylor, but one may not have a relationship with the past or may not have a friendship with them. Right. So they wouldn't know who to ask for this opportunity. nor two, would they know that they even had the option to give crypto. So Taylor, I just want to ask, what made you think, to start giving crypto I mean, particularly at the time, right, the first time that I've given in crypto several times now. And the first time I gave in crypto was 2021. Which 2021 Was it was when like all time highs for Bitcoin was hit all time highs for Aetherium. Or hit to be completely honest with you, most of my net worth was in crypto, right. And so to get that out into cash, right, I have to, it's easy to go crypto to crypto, and it's not hard to go crypto to cash, but I have to send it to like Coinbase or something like that. And then I have to sell it for cash. And then I have to withdraw the cash. And then I have to wait for the cash to get to my main account. And then I have to like write a check. or something, particularly if it's over, you know, any amount, like if it's over 500, or $1,000, or whatever it is, it gets, it becomes very difficult to just send that online because then your debit card wants to decline it or you know, whatever it may be. And I don't own any checks. Like I like how like, and then am I supposed to like call the bank and be like, Hey, can I get like your wire transfer information, and then either put that online or like go to the bank and be like, hey, I need to do a wire transfer. And it's like, it becomes difficult their barrier. Like, I'm a business guy, right? I own started a bunch of companies, all this kind of stuff. And one of the big things with whatever product I'm marketing or whatever product I'm selling, or whatever it is, I want the barriers to entry to be as low as possible, right as low as humanly possible for somebody to get into that and do whatever I'm trying to get them to do, right. And so at the end of the day, churches survive on giving on tithing on donations, right. And so if there are barriers to entry for somebody to give, then you could be losing out. And I don't want to have to go through all those steps to be able to give I want somebody to send me, you know, a 16 or 20 digit wallet address, right, which is what you do in crypto. And I copy that I put in the amount I hit send and then I'm done. And it's easy. That's all that it takes. And I think that 20 or 30 years from now, I think that that will be how everyone works. Right? That's where the technology is going to go. But right now, we're still holding on to the way banks worked in the 1970s before the internet existed, and it makes it weird to send any amount of money more than 50 bucks. Yeah, Coinbase just did this ad I don't know if you guys saw it, but it puts you in the tension of everybody's frustration with the way that money moves. Right? It puts you in the tension of like when you overdraw on your bank account and then they do another fee on top of that. It's like if I don't have money in my bank account, I just don't Why are you charging me extra? But I don't have right Why are you don't have an overdraft fee. And then there's like the situation where somebody's trying to send somebody money and it says it's going to take like three days or five business days. There's something like that and it's like this really good ad that builds the tension of how ridiculous it is still today around how money moves and I thought that was so interesting Taylor that you brought up the inconveniences of the transfer, but not even the tax disadvantages of doing everything that you just said. Not only is it harder for you to do the transfer, withdrawal, liquidation, all that type of stuff, but then you get taxed on top of it. Yep. So it's it's crazy. If I go from, you know, if you go from one crypto to another crypto, you're supposed to pay capital gains tax, right? If you sell that crypto for cash, you're supposed to pay capital gains tax. All like there could be I know somebody who, you know, they had some like, weird crypto coin that's like not on Coinbase. Right, like shiba inu or something weird, right. And, like, they don't even have that on on Coinbase whenever they were talking to me about it. And so they they swapped this coin over here for like Aetherium, right? That's supposed to be capital gains tax right there from what they originally bought it from, and then they send the Aetherium to Coinbase, and cashed it out. And that's supposed to be another taxable event, like the change was minimal. So it doesn't really matter. But like, all of these things start coming into play. Whereas if I just send crypto then I get to write it off, and I don't have to pay anything it takes away from what I have to pay. And no, it's it's, it's absolutely huge. I mean, convenience factor all the way around. Totally. And you know, something interesting about when the church or a 501, C three, liquidates it and maybe turns it into Fiat to use it for good. They don't have to pay capital gains on it at all, because they're tax exempt as a 501. C three, organization. Are you a unicorn Taylor? Are there more crypto investors? Are there more crypto givers? Like you're a unicorn right now? I personally know several others a? It? They're definitely I wouldn't say that they're super common. But I think one of the big things is is that, you know, obviously I'm friends with you guys. I know what you guys do I talk to people about overflow all the time. And then I've had people come up and ask me because the you know, it's gone around the you know, the friend circle or whatever that like I'm a crypto guy. And so they're like, Oh, what is this about? How does it work? And pretty much every single person that I talked to, I'm like, Look, here's what you need to do. I don't even care if you just go and buy like USD C, which is a stable coin, the price isn't as volatile as other other Kryptos. Right. I'm like, I don't care what you do. If you're giving to a church or ministry or somebody that you believe in, then like put it in crypto, let it sit there and then given crypto because it's so much easier. Like it's just so easy. And so I think that that's all once again, I think it's where technology is going. And I think that I have a lot of opinions about the church, and especially the local church, and how a lot of local churches do things and different things like that. And I don't like not talking bad about any of them. But I also think that a lot of times, particularly when we start talking about the giving issue, right? A lot of churches are so concerned with how they're going to pay bills or pay salaries, or whatever it is for the next 23456 months, right, when and not making any plans for what's gonna happen for 2345 10 years down the road from now. And I think the people that are making the investments or opening the doors, for longer term stuff are going to be the people who come out and when and reach people and do what they need to do. So good. Wow. So Taylor, you're talking about a stable coin now, which makes me you know, beg this next question, because you're proving the point, hey, we're out here. And even just speaking, that right there showing that you think of this as a long term play? And you actually think through is is it? am I investing into a church or organization the same way? Can I trust that they're actually going to make long term plays the same way I am with them. So I love that. And I want to hear about your mindset during the quote, dips that happen. Yeah, I mean, anytime you talk about investments or anything else, I mean, Don't risk more money than you can lose, right? Yeah. And you can't always win. I mean, I had a lot of money in a stable coin that failed a year and a half ago, or I guess, almost a year ago exactly is when it failed. And so you can't be everything. You can't win everything. But I think that that's the same thing with that's it like, that's not a reason not to use crypto. Because the same thing happens with cash. It's happened with like, three or four or five or 10 banks or however many has been in the past three months, right where the government has to step in anyway. But I think that when I when I think about the dips, I'm a weirdo. Okay, that's what I'll say. Because when you talk about giving, and I think that giving is also a topic that not enough people talk about openly. Yeah. And it people like shy away from it. And I think that that's really, really silly because there should be no shame or guilt in being generous. Yeah. And that's how people should treat it. And so, you know, when you tithe and do all that kind of stuff, that's amazing. But I think that, you know, God calls for more than just a tie the calls for firstfruits, he calls for offerings, he calls for all these different things in the Bible that it talks about, and just living generously, as a human, right and generously can look, however, which way you want it to look, whether it be time or talent or treasures, it can be all of those different things. But particularly with money, I'm actually the person who I want to give more when I'm in times of need. And so when there are big dips, or I, you know, for the past couple of months, I've kind of been in between businesses, we shut one business down, I'm starting a new business, and I don't have a ton of income coming in, right. And I want to give more, because I know what my faith does, and I know how my faith works. And I know what I believe about God. And I know that he's going to honor that. And I know that I'm going to, I want to like think about this, like there's this. This is okay, right to go this deep into like faith. Right? Okay, it's perfect. So, think about this, okay. We there's this principle in the Bible about sowing and reaping. Okay. And when farmers so, okay, is the field full of loose, luscious, ready, ripe crops for harvest? No, no, it's not, it's empty, it's barren, it needs to be plowed, it needs to be worked, it needs to be weeded so that those crops can sprout, it needs to be watered, it needs to be fertilized, it needs all of these things, so that it can grow into crops so that it can be harvested. And so I look at times of dips, whether it's the crypto market going up and down, whether it's the economy going up and down, whether it's my own personal, I got big bills come out, or I'm in between businesses, or in between jobs, or whatever it is, those are the times when it's planting season, those are the times when the field is bare, and something needs to go there. So that it can be sowed, so that it can be taken care of it can be tended to it can be weeded, it can be watered, it can grow into something that when times are good, I can't harvest. And so that's what I believe that's how I think and so I am a weirdo in that. And not many people think about that. But then I talked about it, and people are like, Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. Right? Um, but yeah, that's how I would treat dips. I think you're a leader. You know, the way you articulate is weirdo. But I think you're a leader. And it's it's actually so profound this conversation. And I believe it's gonna bless a lot of pastors and senior church leaders that specifically listen to this podcast, because they're hearing from you, Taylor, who is an incredibly first principle type thinker, even just the way you talk about crypto, right, my insight, my takeaway, from why you invest into crypto is not because of the hype cycle. It's not this grift it's not kind of this scammy thing. But it comes from a first principle. Truth is, Hey, are we all okay with the way that money's moving right now? Like? Or do we think that's the future that things take three business days, five business days? Do we think it's the future that this is all part of these legacy systems and that money and the way it's transferred and moved, is not transparent, is not on a public ledger is not safe and secure? In that regard? I like the way you think about dips, right? Is that, hey, yeah, there are some crypto companies and maybe even some currencies that were fraudulent. But there are many companies that have been fraudulent in the publicly traded stock market as well. And even the place where people flee to safety in a big bank, a top 20 Bank, those are failing, as well. And then even just your first principles around giving, right that, hey, it doesn't matter if I'm in abundance, and actually, especially in need, if I want to live a life of generosity. I need to toil that practice. I need to toil that principle. And if I sow in generosity, I'm going to reap in generosity. It's just a law. It's a law. If we believe in the Bible, it's a law that is written biblically. And so I just, you know, I think a lot of this conversation will help people break the myths of what they think about when they hear discord channels when they hear you know, all these intimate mean things. You know, another way to think about discord channel is community. It's all it is. It's it's the democratization of being able to talk about these investable assets in a way that's never been available before. Like you said, you can't just text a Wall Street person that has disproportionate information about a stock, right? But you can text the community about a theory, um, you can text the community about Bitcoin and have access to it the same way I have access to it the same way a rich person has access to it the same way a middle class person has access to it, etc. Right. And that's what you're saying, essentially? Yeah. I mean, it's it is. So I mean, I think that what's really interesting is that, you know, as crypto goes, I guess more mainstream, right, there are going to be different things that come about, there are going to be more regulations, there are going to be all these different things, which totally makes sense. And it helps people to not lose money to not put themselves in bad or dangerous places. Right. But I think that when we look at what generosity is, and I think that when we look at being able to give, and I think that, you know, like what I genuinely don't even know, but like, if when I say if I'm using overflow, and I'm sending crypto to church, right? Yeah. What's the turnaround time for them to get the cash? seconds? seconds? Okay? Whereas if I try to take my crypto, put in a coin base, and then get it to cash, and then send it and then like, it's like, it ends up being like, a two week process, like a 10 day process is right. And, you know, I don't think there are many situations where a church necessarily needs, you know, a bunch of money within seconds. But what it does do is, is, you know, I'm on I have served at our church, I've been an associate pastor, I've done all these different things. I've heard people say, oh, yeah, we're gonna give this and then they're like, waiting for a bonus to clear, right? And then they gotta wait to check. And then we got to see if the check is gonna go through or bounce or whatever it is, right? And it's not that we're, you know, doubting people. It's just the way the financial system works, right? Of where when we talk about something being able to be sent in seconds, what that does, is it it gives you have a sense of security, right? It gives you a sense of understanding that, oh, no, we actually have this money, we can use it for what we needed to use it for, we can make plans on how we're going to invest in a new building, or a new camera to live stream or a new, you know, whatever that church or organization might need. In that moment, it gives this this sense of peace. And I think that that is is such an important thing for churches to look at, of how many times if somebody said, oh, yeah, we're gonna give it to you just gotta wait for this to clear and then we will write your check, and then it'll come in. Why? Why? Why? If you're gonna give, why don't you just give it now? Like, I don't know, that's my, my own perspective. I love that. I mean, you're obviously speaking our language here. And, you know, Taylor, I also just want to for anyone listening, I just kind of want to share that Taylor's heart is so for empowering the kingdom. Yeah. And pushing ministries forward. And he really believes that God has called him to create businesses that do that. And so because you have this unique perspective, because you aren't like God's called me to ministry, and that's my only lane I must stay in, right you consider creating businesses, your ministry. So I would love to hear if you have a final word of encouragement that you would love to impart to everyone listening to this. I think that everybody has a ministry. And I think that for every single person, that ministry begins with generosity, I don't care who you are, I don't care what you do, I don't care what you've been called to do. I don't care what God has told you to. I mean, I do care what God has told you to do. But like, I It doesn't matter. It starts with generosity. And I think that that can look like a lot of different ways. I think that it can manifest in a lot of different ways, depending on who you are, and where your talents and skills and abilities lie. But God does want to use you. And, you know, I talked about being an associate pastor and I spent a year praying and talking to people and reading the word about whether I should stop working in the corporate world and go into go to Bible school and go into ministry full time, right? And what came out as a result of that year of praying and talking and doing all these things was I felt like the call on my life was not to go into ministry and speak on a stage or do whatever it is. I felt like my calling was to be able to fund the kingdom right, and be able to empower and help ministries, churches that I believe in people with good causes and the man on the street that needs something to eat. For lunch, right? So it was it goes from everywhere, all the way up at the top all the way down to, to somebody on the street. And I think that if you you have this filter that you look at the world with of regardless of your situation, regardless of where you're at, if you look at it through this filter generation, generosity, and how can I give? How can I serve? How can I do things for other people, rather than what can I get? What can I take? What can I have? Then God can really, really, really use you for incredible things. And I wish that more pastors would say that from sages in front of people, Mike, more people would give that message that, you know, it's not about it's not about what we can take. It's about what we can give, because we've already been given everything. And even just sharing that message of generosity. I think a lot of pastors may hesitate sometimes. And I've talked to a few where they're hesitant, because they feel like it comes off as wanting to take from people. But it's never what you know, we want to take from people but it's what we want for people. And Taylor, you're an example of somebody who is in a local church that is serving his local church that believes in this, it's been transformative in your life, and you're so convicted, that it'd be transformative for a whole generation for our circle of friends for our extended friend network, and so much so you're here on a podcast, really talking about it, and a letter for every pastor, I believe there should be 100 Kingdom builders. For every pastor, I believe there should be 100 tailors that have a mindset like you because while pastors get the download of the vision for their local community, and maybe even their global vision, it's the kingdom builders that we know, determine the pace of that vision that can accelerate things to incredible levels. So we so appreciate you, man. Hey, where can people find you connect with you? We want to be able to serve you as well. Obviously, this community, I think can be really catalytic, to the type of things that you're doing as well. Kingdom empowerment. Want to talk about that a little bit. Yeah, Kingdom empowered, any social media anywhere. Really, our end goal is to just be one, you know, long term big goal is to be one of the biggest Christian media and content companies in the world, using the the internet and using technology, the way that it actually can be used. Because we have experience in that building businesses and different stuff. So we're helping people with marketing. We're helping people with messaging, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, come check us out. Send us a DM I'm the one on the Instagram. So if you go look up Kingdom empowered and you send a DM like it's going to be me responding. So I'm all for it. Awesome. Well, we'll put the links in the show notes and Taylor, it's been such a privilege and a pleasure, my man is good to see you. Thank you so much for having this conversation, this candid conversation around crypto, generosity, and our responsibility as Kingdom builders, for the local church and beyond. Appreciate you. Thank you, Vance. Man, you're you're the one who built the company that actually lets people do this. So thank you to you as well, because you're you're out here changing the world overflow is and I think that I know you guys are blowing up and I know so many people are using you so many churches are but it's only a matter of time before everybody is and I'm just I'm excited to watch you guys go on that journey man. Love that. Thanks so much for listening to the give it up podcast if you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture and giving. Now you can sign up for free to be an overflow insider, where you'll receive exclusive content discounts direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered. And also invite only access to our monthly fundraising leadership forums, head to overflow.co backslash insider, or just click the link in our bio to sign up for free today. In order to get this podcast in the ears of even more church leaders. Could you please subscribe and leave a review for the show. This tells the podcast players what people are enjoying and want to hear more of and we are adamant about providing maximum value to even more church leaders. Thanks so much. We'll see you next time.