In this episode, Vance sits down with Kyle Woumn (VP of Product and Engineering at Overflow + Forbes 30 Under 30) who shares about how and why he began donating corporate stock to nonprofits he believes in, and gives insight as to how you can find these donors in your very own community!
This podcast is presented by Overflow, the most powerful giving platform on the planet. Giving cash, stock, or crypto to your church or non-profit has never been easier. Visit overflow.co to experience and step into future of giving.
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You were actually one of the first users of overflow v one. I was at like v 0.1. Okay, okay. You clicked on the easy button that yeah, just because there was some forms that you had to fill out. And you had to like send via fax, you literally just didn't do it. Yeah, it just seemed like too cumbersome. And I'm like, where am I gonna get a fax machine? So overflow handling it for you in 2019 was the thing that unlocked that form of giving yes for you. A pastor term tech leader and a millennial churchgoer, exploring the intersection of technology, culture and faith, equipping you with innovative strategies to support you as you live out your calling leader churches with confidence to step into the future together. This is the give it up podcast. So this is exciting. Give it up for my guy cow womb that is making a little stop by at the pod at the give it up podcast studios, we're gonna have a conversation about how we're going to give it up for millennials giving stock because this is actually a phenomena. I would say maybe this is like saying too much, but maybe kind of change the trajectory of your life a little bit. Absolutely. Right. Because you're part of the founding team of overflow. You're the VP of product and engineering. We're building products every day, inspiring the world to give. But really the origin story of this was just a few years ago, when you were actually one of the first users of overflow. Talk about that. Give us a little bit like quick rewind into your venture into tech into Twilio. And then into this phenomenon of giving stock to a local church. Yeah, absolutely. So hey, everyone, my name is Kyle, happy to be here on the give it up podcast, man. So my journey started, you know, just a few years ago, and 2015. I'm originally from Atlanta, and I had the opportunity to come out to the San Francisco Bay Area to intern at Twilio. Yep. And that was my first time being exposed to, you know, the Silicon Valley Tex tech company. Yeah. And at the time, Twilio was a private company still. And it was just really cool to see. And so loved it came back 2016 Did a second internship. And that year, they went public. Okay, it was really cool to see that I wish they gave intern stock. They didn't, they didn't. Okay, I was like, You know what, I had to come back another year. Yeah. And so after I graduated, I moved out here to San Francisco Bay area to work at Twilio full time trying to get that bag trying to get the bag. Exactly. And so, you know, when I got my offer part of my compensation, they gave me a base salary. But then the other component of my compensation was actually stuff. Did you expect that that it was going to come with stock? So I had heard about stock? And I know that people said, you know, a lot of wealth, especially in the valley and is made through stock, but yeah, I didn't really understand it if I'm being onshore Sure. And I didn't understand, like, the potential that it had, and all the ways that I could use this, okay, so they gave you some sort of base salary, which you probably cared more about, because like, I need to pay rent, I gotta buy food. You know, I'm trying to take my girlfriend now, on a day, you know, and that's cash money. And then there's this, like, low stock component that, I think admittedly, you're just like, Okay, that's cool. How did you think about it? Was it like, Okay, I've heard that this could be significant, but I'm just out of sight, out of mind type thing. That's literally what it was, you know, there's a one year vesting period. So basically, within that first year, I don't have access to any of the stock. So to me, it's just paper money. It wasn't real to me, in a sense, did that one year? I think they call it cliff, right? Did that influence you really like me? I gotta stay for at least a year. Oh, absolutely. They call it the golden handcuffs. That's what keeps people there, because they see the value of the stock. Okay. And, you know, if you're fortunate to be at a company where the value is growing, it can you know, it can be life changing. And when you joined, how much did was Twilio stock worth at that time? Yeah. So when I joined Twilio, in around February of 2017, the stock prices around $33 $33 Okay, so then they gave you a certain X number of $33. A share stock, correct. And you can't access that for a year after year. What happens? So after a year, I have access to 25% of that stock. Okay, so so you get like a package and then you get 25% of that package within one year. Exactly. And then what do you do? What's your psychology you just holder you sell it and put it in an ETF for? Yeah, what do you do with that? So a lot of people have different opinions on this. And when I first started out, I wasn't really financially savvy. So I asked, I just asked a lot of people a lot of really dumb questions, if you want to call it that. And I'm just like, what would I do with it? A lot of people said they're gonna hold because they really believe in the company. Yeah, other people said they sell every time because, you know, they they say do you believe in your company enough to where if you got just a cash bonus, would you invest that cash into the company? So that's a good way to think about it is and then I was like, you know, my entire livelihood is in this company. So I was the person that would sell every investing. Okay, got it. But I had because you were too concentrated. Exactly wanted to diversify a bit. Exactly. I wanted to diversify a bit. And I also had student loans. After graduating college, I had student loans. And I was like, I can see this as a way to help me fast track that and pay down that debt. And so I use it for that. Oh, that's awesome. Also used it as a diversification strategy. Are you all paid off with your loans? Oh, yeah, those loans longer would have paid off. So a lot of that the stock vesting, that was coming in, you're applying straight up and, you know, paying down chunks, yes. Of your loan? Yes. Oh, my goodness, it was kind of like, you'll just I was getting this extra money every quarter. So after that one year vesting period, the shares best quarterly, yep, up to four years. And so it was kind of like, I'm just getting this excess money every quarter. Okay. And, you know, I had, you know, I'm like, okay, I can, you know, help family back at home, I can do all these different things. It was just like a tool to, to that financial freedom that I was looking. So your tenure at Twilio, you always liquidated it and paid something off? Or when you didn't you reinvested? Yes, exactly into what I have. So I use Wealthfront. And well, fun, for those that may not know is a robo advisor. And so when you first sign up, they ask you some questions to understand your risk profile. I'm like a 10. I'm like, I'm young, you know, put me in all the risky stuff, I want to I want to be able to make this money. And so I will put the money into Wealthfront. And it would just automatically allocate those funds based on like my risk profile into ETFs. Right, exactly. So into diversified stock portfolios. Exactly, essentially. And so risky might be maybe they give more exposure to tech over energy. Energy might be more stable, but slow growing industries tech is more risky, but high growth industries. So but it's doing it all for you. Exactly. It's like out of sight out of mind in that regard. Exactly. And then, you know, over your tenure at Twilio, before you went into the super risky game of startups with me. Talk to me about how that worked for you did Wealthfront were you seeing gains, I was seeing gains? Yeah. So Well, for me, it was like really cool to just kind of go in. I mean, the market was also doing really well, at the time, we're in a bull market. And so it was really cool to just see those gains. And there's just like a game where I just allocate the funds and just kind of watch it grow. That's so interesting. So you are seeing kind of these gains give us like an order of magnitude, what type of year over year, percentage increase, like appreciated gains. were you seeing, like on average? Yeah, I know, one year. So I started around like 2018 using Wealthfront. And I will say in that first year, I had it like around like 10 or 11%, year over year over year increase. Okay. And so like it was booming, and it was really cool to see it tapered off, like around like 2020 Sure. And that's what we know, the pandemic started and things just the economy, the stock market was going down. And so a lot of those gains I still had, I still actually had like unrealized gains, though. It's not like I lost everything because I was essentially dollar cost averaging. So yeah, every paycheck, I will put out, allocate some funds into that Wealthfront. So dollar cost averaging for people that don't know is essentially based on the principle that you're not trying to time the market. A lot of people are like, kinda like real estate, buy low, sell high. Well, good luck trying to predict that. How do you know if it's low? How do you know if it's the bottom? Yeah, how do you know if it's high? How do you notice a peak, but dollar cost averaging? Risk mitigates that by setting some sort of cadence? So let's say you're going to buy into the s&p 500 $100 per week, no matter if the s&p 500 is peaking, or at its lowest, you're going to average out on whatever the way the market grows over time, because you're constantly injecting money to it on a consistent basis. Exactly right. And so your dollar cost averaging, and you're getting kind of an annualized return year over year of 10% Plus, wish to put this in context, right? You know, if you put your money in a savings account, or just a regular savings account, you're getting minimal interest, like sub a percent for sure. Probably even sub half a percent. Yeah, probably maybe 25 pips, there's gonna say Bank of America is point zero 1%. Okay, so bad. Yeah, really? 510 bits, right. Okay. So you're getting like, I don't know, I don't do public math. This is bad. You know, 100x that with just doing something as simple as Robo investing, getting a 10% annualized return, you know, even if you're doing something more sophisticated, like buying a Treasury in that time, it's interest rates weren't as high as it is today. Right. So even buying like a treasury, you know, would only be like 2% 3%. So, being able to invest in the market and you know, things might be down now. But as long as you don't need access to those funds, and it's truly a reserves account, a savings account to build wealth, all of a sudden, across multiple years, I think the market across the last 50 years has proven to be able to SMP 500. has proven to be able to get 10 to 12%. Yeah, you know, if you keep it in it always long enough, it always bounces back. And this has compounding effect. Yes, now, right. And so you're starting to see those gains? Is this a strategy that you still try to employ today? Absolutely. And I just thought about this quote, it just saying, you know, time in the market is better than timing the market. That's right. And so just like being in the market, you know, you win that way. And then, you know, to the fact of, or to the point of compound interest, right? It's like, they say, that's the eighth wonder of the world, right? Yes. And so they say there's, you know, seven natural wonders of the world, but the eighth is compound interest, and those who understand it really benefit from it. Okay, so you have like, kind of like maybe a rainy day type savings fund just for like emergencies. Yeah. But you're trying to deploy anything else that you can save towards the market? Yeah, that's your current millennial mindset. That's my strategy. Was it because you worked for a company that gave out equity for you to start thinking, like this? Or just generally? Have you been interested in financing this way from other sources? I think that was part of it. Like growing up, I think, is I just knew, like, my, my parents didn't have like that financial savviness. And so I'm like, this is something that I want to be able to have, right. And so I read this game, I read this book by Tony Robbins, right before I started my startup, my full time job at Twilio. And it's called Money mastering the game. Okay. And he just talks about a lot of this stuff like dollar cost averaging, and that was really my exposure into it. Yeah. And then, you know, I just looked up other resources. And a lot of people just like self taught or asking people Yeah, kinda like the silly questions. Totally. So you're doing this because you're really looking for ways to get financial freedom? Yes, you want to uplift community, you want to uplift family, you know, outside of just those personal ambitions. You know, we've talked a lot about wanting to Live generously. Yeah, right. We are both believers and things like the tithe, and things like that. At the time, you know, we had met originally, if people don't know this story, through vive San Francisco, a church that Kim and I planted back in, what was that? 2016 2017 2017. Okay. And so that's kind of how we met. So you're a part of that community. You are a giver, in the community. And fast forward a few years later, you know, I'm starting to incubate this idea. Because I kept meeting more and more people like you, I start incubating this idea around helping people more seamlessly consider giving stock directly to the church, whether it's for tithing, or whether it's for offerings, or whether it's for participating in a vision campaign. Talk me through that origin story, because that actually was like, the gateway into you joining the team. Yeah. So visit vive Easter 2017. And that was like my first exposure. I remember, I remember meeting you, and I just thought you were a regular person, you know, I'm just a regular person that meet up and then I'm just like, oh, and then you go up on stage, like, Hey, I'm back. This is my wife, Kim. And we're the campus pastors of Via San Francisco. I was like, Oh, he's the pastor. And so just a side note, if you are a church leader, if you're a campus, Pastor, master the way you DAP up your congregation, okay? And also don't like Introduce yourself. As I'm the campus pastor, I am like senior apostle of blah, blah, blah, like that. Just not as a good look. Right? It's actually better if people relationally connect with you first, and then if later they realize you're a leader within the community. Great. Obviously, if you aren't leading the committee, it's going to be apparent in time. But okay, we had an interaction. Yeah, we have an interaction. And, you know, I really enjoyed the experience. And so I served on team, and every year vive has a vision Gala. And so I attended pretty much all of them at that around that time. And, you know, during the vision Gala, there's, you know, Pastor Adam talks about everything that the church has done, and then you know, he shares the vision for, you know, the next year. Yeah, and asking people to partner for the vision. And I noticed on the car, there was like, a stock option. Yeah, or an opportunity to give stock and firstly, I didn't even know that people could donate stock. Interesting. You know, I only thought that with stock, you could only do two things buy and sell. I didn't know that give was an option came to that. And so I'm like, Okay, this is intriguing. And so I marked it just out of curiosity, just to see what would happen. So then, I received an email, like a few days later from the finance team at vive asking me about facilitating the stock transfer. And so this is that might have been me. Yeah, exactly. Like 2017 2018 This is pre Oh, flow. And there was. So basically I got a receiving instruction on how to facilitate this stock. Yeah. But it required like faxing some forms. And I was like, You know what, I'm actually just going to liquidate my stuff. Oh, you sold it. I sold my stock. Oh, and then so when you sold it, you had to pay capital gains in that hurt. And I didn't, literally because I didn't want to fax or not because I didn't want to fax. But that was like my only option. And I just really did. So let's just say for example, the stock that you sold at Twilio was$1,000. Because of capital gains tax, and I'm going to oversimplify this. Your gift could only be literally because the government off the top takes their taxes right away when you liquidate. Especially with these. Yeah. Especially with these RSUs in the type of stock that you get around $700. Probably, yeah. Based on your tax position. Yeah. So you could have given 1000, right, and I'm making up numbers, but you could have given like something like 1000, but you can only give that year 700. Because you liquidate it, yes. Oh, so interesting. And I didn't know this. And you know, I wasn't really playing like the tax optimization game, then I just wasn't educated on the topic. And stuff. They don't want you to know they don't man. And so when you and I reconnected and you were, you know, sharing about overflow, I was like, wow, like one understanding that I could have saved, you know, capital gains taxes. And then to that, like you all would have basically received the entire gift and you would have been able to get a higher charitable tax deduction. Yes, exactly. Because if you only gave 700 You can only deduct 700. Exactly. But if you directly transferred the stock to the church, you would have gotten the tax deduction at the fair market value. Yes. Wow. And so around. So the 2019 vision goals, right? That's when I was like, Okay, let me try this out. And so, you know, there was the, the V one, I was at, like, v 0.1. Okay, okay. Yo, che Kevin Lizano? Don't I love you. He's a good version, it was a good version. And so then, you know, that's where I had the opportunity to try it out, you know, we were able to learn about a lot of the nuances. Because, like, there's with employee stock, you have to keep in mind things like trading windows. And so for example, if someone's working at a public company, like Twilio, and they want to give stock, they can only give within certain certain times of the year. So that timing was also really important, right? So it was like a really cool opportunity. And I'm just like, wow, and just seeing us, you know, where we live. And this isn't just like, a thing in the Bay Area, this happens everywhere. But you know, just being here, and like seeing everyone that works at you know, metta, Google, all these companies out here in the Valley. And they they may, you know, their networks, may, they may have a high net worth, but they're, they're illiquid. Right? And, and so, you know, that may be their, their only way to give, right? Because when you think about and that was kind of like my situation where I'm like, Okay, I have the cash in my bank account. But that's going to my rent that's going to all my you know, financial obligations that I need that goes to saving, but then you know, the stock, like I said, it was just kind of like, kind of like play money in his house money. Exactly. It was house money. And I'm like, Okay, if I can donate this, but also, you know, so that can be generated. But there's also like that secondary tax advantage. Yeah, it's a no brainer for me. So that's when I use the platform. And I was just like, wow, and you clicked on the easy button that year, I clicked. So literally, just because there was some forms that you had to fill out. And you had to like, send via fax, you literally just didn't do it? Yeah, it just seemed like too cumbersome. And I'm like, where am I going to get a fax machine? And I know, I know, there's like online tools, but it was just, it just seemed like too much. And you know, I was ignorant to the text. So overflow, handling it for you in 2019 was the thing that unlocked that form of giving Yes, for you. And if you weren't able to give stock, you either would have had to liquidate it, and then give less and take a tax hit. Or probably give just less Yes. In general, if you're gonna get from your checking account, exact, practically exact, right. And obviously, the rest is history. Some of you that know this story, Kyle then was so impressed by 0.1 that he decided to join the overflow team. And we've been building together for a few years now. And it's been fantastic because since then we had pretty much 0.1 customers. Now we now serve over 400 customers, you know, some of the best churches in the world, but also nonprofits, American Cancer Society. We got Golden State Warriors, foundation, Meals on Wheels, some of the most amazing YMCA, the most amazing organizations on the planet. Talk to us. You know, we're talking a lot about the way you think as a millennial about money. The way that you've saved the way that you've even had the perspective around your stock grants and things like that. You're obviously not alone in this there are at least hundreds of 1000s If not approaching millions of people literally just like you that get paid like you Who? Or have gotten paid like you and manage money similar to you? Not everybody like you, though, gives, obviously a big portion of your giving is your conviction around religious giving. Talk to us about that. Yeah. You know, I'm a believer. And so I personally believe in the time Yeah, I just believe like, leaving a more generous lifestyle, it always comes back. And it's like, I don't, I don't do it. Because, you know, I don't do it for the reciprocity, but no, yeah, always comes back. Yeah. So that's just something that I've been principled in. And like, even working at overflow is really like opened my eyes to, you know, generosity has been cool. We've been inspired. Yeah, like several people's generosity really crazy. Our mission is to inspire the world to give. But in doing this, we've been inspired, you know, and I've been inspired to, you know, even give more. And so, it's been really cool. But like, like I said, I'm not the only one, there's so many people out there. They're also being compensated and, you know, stock, but they may not even know the options, they may only know that you can just buy sell, but they don't know about the giving opportunity. And, you know, one or two shares goes a long way, especially if you're at like a, you know, Google where Amazon or Amazon Yeah, you know, the share price like one, like if you have one a single stock, right, that can feed so many people or that can really, like make a difference as well even for you at Twilio. Right? Like when you join those $33 at one point. And you know, at the time of recording Twilio has ups and downs, you know, the market is just up and down. But like at one point, you got an A 33. But at one point, it was like 350 Yeah, you you personally had like a 10x gain. Yes. On when they originally granted you this offer, they didn't probably even realize that, Oh, we're actually gonna be paying called 10x more. And you're probably appreciative of that area. And so, you know, I think that is something for, you know, pastors, executive pastors, CFOs fundraisers out there to realize that there are literally people in your community right now that are sitting on quote, unquote, house money, and that just like Kyle, just a few years ago, didn't even know that this was an option. Let's close with this. I mean, you know, you said that you had this conviction, or on the time, just this deeper conviction or on generosity. Being a believer. Where'd this come from? Was this a pastor growing up? Was this your mom? I know my mom. She would like she's a big believer in time. She would like hassle me when I was in college, transparently wasn't tithing. I was not honoring God. I was doing my own thing. She would ask me every single Saturday. Hey, are you tithing? Are you tithing? And I just like brushed her off. I can see now that like it had some residual effect. I don't know. Was it a pastor? Was it a mom? What was it in your life? Was it an experience? Yeah, I will say is my honestly. So my wife, she's kinda like my spiritual adviser. Yeah. And like even growing up allowance money, right? I would sometimes get allowance sometimes not, you know, apparently, what am I paying you to, you know, to do what you're supposed to do. But like, in the rare times, I would get allowance, right. You know, I would tell them I should be tithing on this. You like his income? Right. And so, you know, I would try them on my allowance. And you know, growing up in church, this is when they have like the basket this before, like, online. And so you have the baskets with the wooden Oh, yeah, those, the velvet. I've had that red purple coins in there. What church was this? So it's called ray of hope, Christian church. Of course, I went to two churches. One was called first me. So first African Methodist, Episcopal in Atlanta, and then another and then when I was like, in middle school, we started attending ray of hope, Christian church. Okay. Okay. All right. So you would give even off your allowance of my allowance. And so this is some. So then when I you know, actually you started making real money out. And so I used to tie. So this is where I kind of had to make a decision, right? It's like, do I tithe on gross or net? There's like the age old debate a let's talk about it. And so I used to tie on net, right? And I'm like, wow, so I would say when I get my tax return, but if I get anything, then I'll tie off of that. But then I was like, You know what? God's been too good. And I think it's just kind of like, making that sacrifice. And you know, giving Gross is just paid off dividends. Oh, that's interesting. So you didn't even get into like a super deep philosophical debate on the technicality of it. Basically, the tie break for you is like, ah, if it was a this versus that, might as well just be more generous. crustaceans, friends about this. And yeah, it's just kind of like, you know, it's already his and none of it was was my money. Hey, that's a big decision in California. It is being you know, tithing off gross. And then seeing what the net comes out with after taxes in California. Yeah, it hurts. Even times where I'm like, ooh, do I stop? I'm like, No, I can't do that. And I'm like, Well, I like Okay. Talk to us about the temptation of that because I think probably millennials. I mean, probably everybody struggle with that temptation. Of do I stop? What what is that conversation you have with in your head? Yeah, I think it's just kind of like I feel like if I stop is kind of like saying to God, like, I don't trust you. Wow. And that's the feeling I have and I have A friend who puts it in like other terms, who times and he's always like, this is like my life insurance policy. That's what he says, wow. It's a funny way to look at it, it's a funny way to look at it. I don't want to, like, look at it that way. But like, like, if we were to look at it holistically, though, I think, you know, for me, it's like, if I were to stop, then it just felt like, Okay, I don't trust God that he'll provide elsewhere, like when I need it. And so I love that man, I love how these, it's just one aspect of our walk with God. Right. But you know, this being a very important aspect of trusting God, you know, is connected to a lot of things. We've had conversations, and it's going to be too much for this pod. But God is literally saved your life. Yeah. You know, through like a crazy event, I think in San Francisco shooting, God has showed up in our lives through our company, right, we have, you know, gotten funding rounds, you probably shouldn't have gotten that back in the day. And, you know, we've been entrusted with customers that have been like miracles, and that has produced momentum and to becoming the company that we now are being entrusted by hundreds and hundreds, and by the end of this year, probably 1000s of organizations. And so that's really cool. How just this component within your life of giving, is so connected now. So integrated, so into a lot of things that you're doing, and time and time again, I just see the fruit of it, too. Yeah. So I mean, give it up for millennials giving stock, but just give it up for this generation, millennials that have the conviction of the tie that I know, you might be a pastor or a church leader, and you might be timid, about teaching on the type of teacher and generosity teaching on giving, but I'm sitting across from a person that's just a bit younger than me, we're both millennials that believe in it. Yeah, that live it, that actually practice it. If I can do it, if Kyle can do it, if we can't have an authentic conversation of it being powerful in our life. Just imagine how many more people in your congregation, your community, your church, your donor base, are hungry for having somebody challenged them in their life in this area. Just watch. If this first principle is working for us, I imagine that it can work for so many more people in your community. So that's episode for today. Thanks for coming on, man. Happy to be here. So good. Thanks so much for listening to the give it up podcast if you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture, and giving. Now you can sign up for free to be an overflow insider, where you'll receive exclusive content discounts direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered. And also invite only access to our monthly fundraising leadership forums, head to overflow.co backslash insider, or just click the link in our bio to sign up for free today. In order to get this podcast in the ears of even more church leaders. Could you please subscribe and leave a review for the show? This tells the podcast players what people are enjoying and want to hear more of and we are adamant about providing maximum value to even more church leaders. Thanks so much. We'll see you next time.